In this episode of the Becoming Mindful Podcast, Jackie and Maria are continuing their new series answering the question: Is mindfulness bad?
In this 3rd part of the series, we focus on spiritual bypassing, toxic positivity, and cultural appropriation.
After watching, please let us know if this spoke to you. Let us know if and how you have encountered spiritual bypassing, toxic positivity, and cultural appropriation. Reach out to us with any follow-up questions this talk has brought up. We hope you will join us again next episode.
Until then, Be well friends!
Maria: Hello and welcome to the Becoming Mindful Podcast.
Today we want to talk about another topic in the series of is Mindfulness bad, and we want to focus on spiritual bypassing, toxic positivity, and cultural appropriation today,
I am Maria.
Jackie : I am Jackie, and we are becoming mindful.
Maria: All right, let’s start with how it could be argued that these topics, speak against mindfulness.
Jackie : all of these have come up in past episodes before, because it is really common. think it’s an easy trap to fall into. is any of these, you know, the spiritual bypassing or cultural appropriation?
I mean, toxic positivity is, I think we kind of all do it sometimes. but there’s definitely some examples that we can go through that are actually like really problematic, but . . I don’t know. I know I’ve definitely been guilty of each of these. and it’s not easy to, recognize all the time. I think.
So I don’t know. Maybe we can talk about what each of them are to start.
Maria: Sure. Yeah, so if we talk about toxic positivity, that’s really the notion of, trying to be positive at all costs. trying to, ignore or somehow get rid of feelings that are not, considered positive. Let’s say it this way. you know, thinking of things like anger or sadness, things like that. And, always trying to, bring out the, oh yeah but at least you have this kind of thing, right? So that’s what I would consider toxic positivity.
Jackie : Yeah.
And spiritual bypassing can be really similar, it’s more when you’re using, spirituality or spiritual practices to bypass, the actual spiritual work. So maybe, not going any deeper, than like a surface level practice or,maybe things like, I know here’s an example is like going to yoga class as a spiritual practice. But, just doing the physical practice and not going further and doing, your shadow work or your meditation or anything like that. And saying, well, I don’t need to worry about, any of that because I showed up to yoga class.
Maria: check that off my list, or I meditated today. Check that off my list. And, not taking that step further. Yeah. And like stripping the practice of the deeper meaning.Yeah. And I think cultural appropriation flows very closely into that. Because what it really means is you taking another culture’s,practices and do them without
either you don’t belong to that culture or you, just don’t have the same meaning with it. And especially problematic when it’s a part of a culture that was, traditionally oppressed. So the members of that culture or of that spirituality were not able to practicedue to, colonialism.
And, now the oppressor is essentially taking elements of that and doing it first of all, without the spiritual meaning and without belonging to the culture. But then it’s also kind of a slap in the face of the original culture saying like, oh, here, we can just do it without repercussions and have fun with it.
And you were not allowed to use it.
Jackie : it seems kind of obvious why those might be bad. but I think as far as a case against mindfulness as a whole, it’s something that you need to watch out for and it’s definitely something you should be as you begin to work through mindfulness, because I think . It’s really easy to go down these avenues when you hit one of those tough points in mindfulness, where you’re starting to heal something from your past and it can be difficult or uncomfortable or, I know when I started meditating, like even just like calming down and kind of slowing down was really uncomfortable for me. And I think in those moments it’s really easy to liketake a like toxic positivity route or something out of that discomfort. It’s such an easy route to take, I think.
Maria: Yeah, and I think when we talked about the commodification of mindfulness, I think that’s where it, comes up a lot. The toxic positivity part. Because, the intention there isbeing more productive versus the, exploration of self or Healing, right? And, then it gets
advertised as the super pill for happiness. And bliss and sunshine. Right? I think a lot of that is feeding already now. I think people are getting more and more aware of that. Mindfulness is more than that, but, I think that’s the first, Touchpoint, I think of a lot of people, especially from a western culture, if it’s not part of their original culture. if you have someone from india or certain cultures that already have these ingrained in their culture and their spiritual practice, they won’t obviously, Fall into that trap as much.
Now, I think the cultural appropriation is a gray area on the mindfulness side because there is a lot of arguingis it, or is it not cultural appropriation, to do things like yoga. Or is it, could it be considered cultural appreciation? or is it even something that is so universal that you can’t really pinpoint it to a specific culture? but I think the tricky part here is that yes, on one side you could see, yes, it is,universal and it’s not really necessarily tied to a culture. But then on the other hand it is, because, a lot of the teachings come from more of a Buddhist or,more of the around there, which, I think was actively try to be stripped of those roots to make it more secular.
Which then the end product it’s kind of really hard to see. is this really the universal thing or is this something that was just stripped of its culture and this is thus cultural appropriation.
Jackie : Yeah, I think yoga’s a really good example of that. again, because it’s just so prevalent and in a lot of places, where it’s come over to the Western world, it has been, really diluted and, stripped of it’s spiritual practices and like you said as far as like colonialism, a lot of those things were done very intentionally. And even today still a lot of, religious groups that see yoga as, basically a sin,like you’re going to be practicing this other religion and, You’ll become, Hindu, or something like that.
So there’s a lot of pressure to strip those out of most yoga classes. so that, people don’t get uncomfortable and people misinterpret , what someone wants to be providing. But at the end of the day, yoga is a spiritual practice that,that came from the Vedas, and, has a very strong,cultural, uh, significance in Hinduism. And so when you strip all that away, you’re left with this physical practice that you know Americans like. but at the end of the day. Can we even call most yoga? Yoga?
What happens, when we do that, how do we write that we don’t want to take these practices as they traditionally were created for their purpose of, really inner self work and,Do we call it something different I’m kind of in the more of the boat of like, we preserve those teachings and honor that historical wisdom that accumulated over millennia. And,for the people who are ignorant and might think that. It’s bad because it’s a different religion.
or maybe, if, I don’t wanna say ignorant, I guess that’s not a good way to put it because, if you are, very committed to your religious practice, I don’t think, I don’t really know where I’m going with it because I guess I don’t land on either side completely.
I don’t know. What do you think?
Do you think there’s room maybe for, a morphed version that, is more approachable for Americans or on this other side that of leaning where maybe we just need some education and some more understanding and be more open to other cultures, especially cultures that are older than us and have, have learned so much, have so much to offer as far as historical wisdom, where our culture is very new.
Maria: Yeah, I think,I tend towards the latter as well. if you look at it from the perspective of do we create something that’s morphed? Okay, first of all, then you have to call It’s something different, Which people don’t wanna do because they’re thinking, oh, the kind of benefiting off of the name which is, you could call cultural appropriation because you’re benefiting off of the recognition of that it is such a ancient thing that there is so much wisdom in it.
Um, Yeah. You could call it stretching or exercise. Right. And if you take all of the spiritual stuff out of it, that’s what it is.
But then again, yes, we would be losing so much of that wisdom. now then coming back to appropriation, I think we have to go back to what’s the intent of the original culture? is this something that’s a close practice or is this something that they actually want to share with the world? And as far as I understand, it is something that was supposed to be shared, but then, in the same breath you cannot just put away all of the history, the attribution. right?
So you can turn it from a cultural appropriation into a cultural appreciation.
Where as you said, we can honor the history, where it comes from and what it means and we can make sure that the original culture is not only attributed, but also appreciated and supported in that. And things like maybe only a real spiritual practitioners can teach it or something like that. I don’t know.
Obviously that’s a kind of a uncomfortable thought because I know,that you’ve trained in teaching yoga.
Jackie : I’m a yoga teacher. I’m also a SHA of AANA meditation instructor, which is a Tibetan Buddhist
Jackie : So that’s, yeah, there’s stuff to unpack there. and I don’t . Obviously I took the teaching.
I want to be a teacher and I do teach yoga. and I try to be very respectful of the practice and I don’t dilute it for comfort. but I also am not Hindu. I didn’t study it my whole life. I don’t have the same cultural, understanding that someone actually from the culture might.
and I get kind of, torn. I’ve met so many people in through yoga and through teaching yoga and I know so many teachers and so many people have found yoga to be a spiritual practicestarted to. dive into everything that we’re talking about, taking it to the level that it’s supposed to be taken,know, that really internal study.
but they found yoga because they were looking for an exercise .
Or they were looking to heal an injury That’s how so many people find yoga. And then for a handful of those people who find it, they get to that next point. they take it further and they open themselves to self-discovery and it becomes this magical practice.
I mean, with the other teachers, I know we’ve had a lot of conversations in that, is it okay to draw people in for that physical practice which Americans love and resonate with and will respond to? and then when they get there, bring in the philosophy behind it.
and that’s the best way to share these practices in culturally respectful way while still getting people in your door and at the end of the day know, paying your bills and getting people in your studio.
It makes me feel a little icky, but I don’t know where you go from there.
Yeah, and I think it’s infinitely complicated because as you said, the accessibility would not be granted the same way if you really limit it more. so yeah, I don’t know. And it’s also really hard question to answer if you’re outside of the culture. So for me, I would. Probably have to say, I would have to refer back to the,people of that religion. I think like the internet and connecting people more is making this so much more easy to do. for instance, there was a wave of cultural respect revolution happening in yoga over the last couple years around the term namaste. . Whereas, people in western culture were misusing the word namaste. namaste is a greeting.
And, a lot of yoga teachers were using it to like close their practice. And it has a lot of cultural significance behind it. It’s not just a greeting. But the thing is that this knowledge wave came through all of yoga. and it, I don’t know, it reached the Midwest of the United States, like the last couple years, where, teachers were learning what namaste meant, what it was, what the significance was, and realize that saying it at the end of their practice wasn’t appropriate.
It didn’t even make sense really. . And people stopped doing it. And then so many students would come up to us and ask why aren’t you doing this anymore? And we’d talk about what Namaste is. And in that sense, that was really great. we saw that we were being ignorant in a certain way and, culturally appropriating this, a toxic positivity term I’ll say, where, you know, namaste or, just using it inappropriately. And I think, a lot of knowledge is becoming available now. and so we can honor different cultures while not being part of them. By having people from that culture educate us directly.
Maria: exactly. Yeah. So you bring them in. Yeah. I think we’re in agreement there. it’s a very complicated topic and of course the opinions about it vary infinitely. you have some people that are very extreme. however, I have noticed that the very extreme people are usually, interestingly not, from that culture. They’re usually white women.
Then it goes back into this, white savior complex, But yes
Jackie : yeah. I’m curious how it is in like other countries because. United States. I mean, we don’t have much culture.
First of all, we’re a really young country. But second of all, , colonialism most. When people came to the United States, came to America and immigrated, we stripped all the culture out of immigrants and called it a melting pot. Maybe that’s toxic positivity because we just Mushed everything together.
Stripped a lot of culture away.
Jackie : In the United States, I feel we’re this like vessel that are reaching at all these different cultures, trying to find some kind of roots.
But I don’t know, because I don’t feel like we have a real strong culture .
Maria: I mean we do have culture, but it’s notvery old unless you want to include all of the
cultures of the people that came here. But you also can’t forget that there is definitely a culture here that’s very old we don’t wanna forget that.
we have native, people that have a very old culture rooted in this land.
Which they were very much stripped of.
the approach that I like most is, you can live together in a community and still honor all of the cultures. Everyone’s culture, And be diverse.
I think that’s one of the problems with what we’ve also seen with yoga and so on. it’s becoming this very watered down bland version to maybe create something that’s. appeals to everyone where it is like one thing. But even if you look at a global, community, that doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone has to have the same practices, have the same beliefs, and the same culture.
But like going back to toxic positivity, I think I wanna dive into that a little bit more too.
It’s interesting, I think when I started with the mindfulness journey and, looking online and how, some of the new age spirituality started up and how, people approach it, a lot of it. was steeped in toxic positivity.
It’s like this: okay, we’re meditating to feel positive. And you have this mindset of you have to think positive thoughts and then they will come true. Like you’re transforming your environment or you’re manifesting something. Positive. Yeah. And so the whole manifestation culture, I’m not saying that it’s not true that, your, disposition to things will not change something in your environment.
Absolutely it will. But I think, The direction it was taking was towards the, it has to be something positive.I believe that is changing now. The term toxic positivity has been spread and people are aware. I think more, than they were. I think I see this less and less. and that might also just be my bubble where I have more people that are outspoken against toxic positivity versus the people that advocate for this positive mindset.
But I know there’s many examples. especially the phrase of, oh, something bad happened to you, but at least you know you’re not whatever. Good vibes only. I would probably wanna replace that all vibes allowed.
Jackie : Right though? I think it’s changing. I was thinking about kind of pop culture and kinda looking at like the top shows, like television shows and things, and I think about like nineties television, I think of like the sitcom where it’s a lot of toxic positivity and even when they’re dealing with serious issues, it’s always like this jokey thing around it and we don’t really address it. I think of shows like friends or whatever. And then I think about now I think we’ve got media that is really getting real and diving into real topics and getting really uncomfortable and vulnerable, but in a good way.
, even something like Ted Lasso comes to mind because he is, you could question whether he has toxic positivity, but at least they deal with really vulnerable issues in there. But breaking Bad was a huge show, and you had morality arcs in there and dealing with ego, and there’s just so much, I think media’s a really good reflection of the culture.
And it also guides the culture. And even the most popular things like television is getting more, or less toxic positivity, more real.
Maria: Yeah, but on the other hand, I think it can also slip into the other direction where there’s this, whole dystopian outlook on everything, which is the other route to go. You’re getting steeped into all of the terrible things. That doesn’t seem very, observant to me either because I think not either or. Nothing is ever either or. And what we’ve always talked about with mindfulness and how it teaches us to observe the feelings, to allow all of the different feelings, negative, positive, whatever you wanna call it, in a nonjudgmental way. And be able to feel them without being swept away. I feel that, if you look at the more dystopian outlook on everything, that’s pretty much getting swept away by your negative feelings. And it comes to mind this saying with the old man and where he’s saying we don’t know what the future holds, if it’s good or bad, because we don’t really know what’s gonna come? his horse runs away and all the townspeople say, oh my God, that’s so horrible, I’m so sorry for you. And he said, we dunno,it could be good or bad. And then, next day the horse comes back with a whole herd of wild horses.
So everyone’s oh, how wonderful. You’re so lucky. And he says, we don’t know, could be good or bad. And then, his son rides one of the wild horses falls down, breaks his legs. So everyone is oh, no. Horrible. And again, he’s we don’t know. Then the next day I think there’s a war breaking out and they’re drafting all the young men and his son can’t go because, his leg is broken. you know, it kinda goes on like that where no matter what happens, you don’t know if it’s a good or a bad thing. You just have to take it as is.
And that’s. Really what we discussed with the Radical acceptance book, right? You can accept everything as is without judgment and that doesn’t mean that you don’t have to act on it and just roll over and take it. But,it gives you a, more neutral outlook on that.with hope, but also not just everything is sunshine rainbows .
Jackie : Yeah, it, think a lot of times we end up these routes when we’re expecting mindfulness make us happy, positive, and all that. And like you’re saying, it’s not happiness that you are getting from mindfulness practices. And when you see someone with an established mindfulness practice, you know, it’s not happiness. It’s, um, all the same things that you were before, but without judgment and without that judgment, you know, you can find this place of more content because you’re not, suffering additionally. around the that you’re feeling because stuff is gonna happen in life. You know, suffering is inevitable and things change. but, you know, we can accept those things and through our mindfulness practices learn how to find content and find understanding around those things.
but it’s not about. getting rid of negative feelings or being happy all the time, or everything being good. it’s not, through the highs and lows in life, you can lean on your mindfulness practice. I thought of an example that my husband and I were talking about,which is like on the news when we see things like, these stories about communities coming together and a GoFundMe so someone can, um, pay for a medical procedure. And you know, I see that as really toxic positivity and an example that I wanted to bring up because, it’s not about like shying away from all the suffering and not seeing negativity in the world. It’s about being open to everything and seeing the world exactly how it is. Like the story you were just telling where you know, these horses are here now. I’m open to whatever happens next. happens next, I’ll have these horses.
Whatever happens next, my son will have a broken leg and back to that GoFundMe example, If we focus on this big positive thing that the community came together, which is wonderful and great. Yeah, it’s a great news story, but the story behind that, if we don’t look at the suffering behind that, the reason that they had to create a GoFundMe campaign, the systemic issues that led to that.
Jackie : Those are never gonna get solved. And we just hide behind toxic positivity that, look, this community came together instead of addressing something that our society really needs. And that’s the danger of toxic positivity. And I’ll just go back really quickly ’cause it makes me think of the story of the Buddha who was A prince who lived behind palace Walls his whole life. And when he was a young man, he,left and walked the city and he saw suffering. And that’s when he, decided to, leave his material possessions and start his path toward enlightenment. It was when he looked and saw suffering.
And toxic positivity, it puts suffering behind closed doors and we need to be open and look at and see suffering in the world. And not in a negative way. I mean with open arms and being ready to help and be of service however we can to that suffering. Because when we’re positive, we don’t look at that next step. And without a mindfulness practice, looking at suffering can be really difficult, uncomfortable. it can put you into that freeze response like you were saying, where you don’t know what to do you can get that doomsday, the other side of toxic positivity, the other opposite.
I think that’s the big danger of toxic positivity.
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it alsoit goes back to blaming the individual in a way. Because if you say, okay, think positive thoughts and good things will come to you. So if those good things don’t come to you, obviously you did something wrong. . Yeah. And obviously that person’s not there to help you because they didn’t see a need to help. So it’s kind of on you. And that goes right into spiritual bypassing. I know we didn’t talk a lot about it, but kind of just, a bandaid, right? Just like toxic positivity. I thought of a good example of spiritual bypassing from, I don’t know if this is gonna date me, but, the nineties show, Seinfeld, and there was this whole episode of Serenity Now.
And they would just push it down and they go about their day. And obviously by the end of the episode it all built up and they all exploded. Um, spoiler alert, but,
Maria: If you haven’t seen, the show yet, don’t listen.
Jackie : But I don’t know, I think that’s just like toxic positivity, you’re just recognizing that feelings are coming that first step of mindfulness is observation. You’re recognizing it and that it’s, something that you need to deal with. And then, spiritual bypassing can be something like serenity now just push it down instead of looking at those feelings, feeling them and processing through them.
Maria: Yeah. And it’s interesting because this reminded me of another example. it’s this disney movie that I just saw with my daughter recently.what’s it called? Inside Out or something? The one with the feelings where you have the little guys in this girl’s head.
It was really cool because spoiler alert if you haven’t seen it.
So originally you have, the happiness and you have sadness and you have anger and disgust and what was the last one? Fear I think so. But yeah, so heaviness is like constantly on the forefront and, everything is great. And then,stuff happens and, sadness is stepping in and everyone is just like, oh no, and we have to prevent this. And, but the end of the movie, It is shown that yes, this is also really important. Because each of these feelings have a reason and a validity.
That’s another thing, like that’s not what mindfulness is based on e either. Even so you say observing it, you still need to feel the feelings. They’re still important. There is value to each feeling.
Jackie : Observing is step
Jackie : . And all those feelings,, there’s so much to learn about yourself and those feelings. I think when I started becoming mindful like really in the beginning, you learn so much about yourself in those feelings and learn when you start to feel ’em.
Maria: You stop judging and you just listen to the story that you’re telling yourself and,Yeah.
Jackie : What those feelings are trying to tell you. Um, but then I’m really trying to turn my practice outward lately and see, okay, now how can I lean into those feelings and be of service. I’m finding that like those are really the places where you can be of service.
You know, if you’re just looking at happiness and you know that toxic positivity, you can’t do anything. I, to your point earlier, if it’s all doom and gloom and the world is ed and everything, well, you can’t do anything there
Jackie : It’s in those like nuances. When you let yourself feel, you let yourself feel what is going on in the world, you let yourself see. Um, where people need you. You can find a place to be of service where your skills fit into, alleviate someone’s suffering make the world better or to, you know, do some kind of work that, that the world and, there’s a lot of what we’re talking about in this episode our society because we don’t, like to be uncomfortable as a large group, which it’s understandable.
That’s okay. Like, that’s another thing I wanna say, like . No guilt, no shame here. Just now. Just recognize when it comes up and try to pick a better path. But,
Jackie : I think, yeah, I think we’re on that path as a society. I think we’re getting there.
Maria: Yeah, that’s, I think that’s one of the biggest things. I think the humans or probably any life is definitely always, drawn to comfort and away from discomfort. Right, naturally, because it makes survival easier, Anything that feels comfortable is something that,makes you survive better. Yes, that’s like the extreme, but I think, coming back to all of the feelings, just as you said, like it’s really important to have that nuance and have that observation so you can utilize the feelings and not only know more about yourself, but also act in a a more directed way. yes, you can be Angry, but instead of, going to burning down the world, you can maybe, use the anger towards
Specific causes of injustice, for example. Or you’re sad and maybe that can help you be more compassionate with someone else. And also know more about yourself. I know you’re not at this point yet with your child, but I know, ever since my kid, I think it started three or four where. They start really pushing your buttons and they trigger you. Anda lot of times that manifests as un feeling of anger, but it’s very interesting if you observe, it’s like you can learn a lot about yourself and especially your own childhood and upbringing and also like how society’s views of children and parenting contradict your own values and those kind of things. So it really,it’s really interesting.
Jackie : Yeah. Yeah. I feel children are just perfect for, poking. Those little vulnerable
Maria: Oh yeah, that’s their job,
Jackie : Drawing it out.
Maria: And it’s funny. Yes. this is exactly what I read in Janet Lansbury’s book. it is their job. They’re supposed to do that. That’s how they become a person.
Jackie : see that they need to take what we teach them and then test it and see if it works for them. mean, they’re, , I was just talking to my, partner about this like. If they’re living in a different world than we are, they’re growing up in a different time.
Maria: They have a different family. They have they have a whole different experience and they’re gonna do things differently than we are. And gonna force me to question the way I’ve been doing things and look at myself and see, what I’m doing. Yeah. If you’re willing to look at that. And accept that you’re gonna have a reaction. And obviously not always gonna be, I’m the perfect observer and super mindful here about this that’s okay. So I think we’ve talked a lot about posi Toxic positivity. We also talked about the cultural appropriation thing.
Um. Do we wanna add anything to spiritual bypassing? I think it spiritual bypassing and cultural appropriation are so intertwined. We probably hit on everything.
Jackie : if you’re just, um, having unrealistic expectations about your practice, you’re probably bypassing. In fact, if you, you have expectations about your practice, um, then you’re, you might be bypassing
Maria: That’s true. Or having a toxic positivity.
Jackie : Yeah. So I. I’m glad we talked about this because I think it’s a big reason that, um, some people like roll their eyes at mindfulness practices because maybe they only see these parts, they only see these, um, only see the types, you know, dressing a certain way or talking a certain way or,
it’s definitely easy to fall into and it’s easy for pop culture to highlight those things and, um, know, something like the Serenity now and say that, oh yeah, that’s what spirituality’s about. So it’s bogus and you don’t need to look at it.
Maria: Yeah, I one of the notions I always feel when I see this. the spiritual types that the bliss and,we are all star seat or whatever, like all of this. I feel that there is a certain intoxication around that. I think, it, because when you apply mindfulness practices, sure there is things that can give you a very deep and spiritual, experience, . and I think people get drunk on that in a way.
it’s almost like then it becomes somewhat of a drug to people and that’s kind of dangerous.
Jackie : Yeah, for sure. I think it, unfortunately, like I get the idea that a lot of people in that place then . Turn around and I see a lot of like marketing spiritual practices from people who are in that state where, you know, let’s chase this high and,, you’re right. I think that’s . is the perfect word for it, because it’s all, it’s amazing. You can have amazing experiences and it’s great. but again, no judgment. Accept it, learn from it, feel it, and
Maria: yeah. And I think, who was it? Tara Brach? in her book, radical Acceptance, that was talking about the non-judgment of the situation or the if you get negative input that you can accept it, but it’s the same of with positive and that’s actually even harder. So if you have a intoxicating experience like that, I think it’s really hard to Be non-judgmental and not take it personal and not. Be like latching onto it.
Jackie : like the story you were telling like about, the horses yeah. Oh man, you have such a great luck. it yes, I’ve got all these horses.
This is what I have now. Um, know what will happen tomorrow.
Maria: Right Plus he has to feed them too.
Jackie : Look at the suffering. Doesn’t mean being negative. It means be open and loving and accepting and arms open into the world. but with. No judgment and you know, so something isn’t good or bad. it is. And you can celebrate things and mourn things, but the end of the day, not attaching them to your identity is, is really the important thing, I
Yeah. And you can even, and you can do it at the same time. You can be sad and happy at the same time, and it doesn’t contradict itself. no, there’s something else I was gonna say. It’s gone.I think there was something about,anything else to add. I think we covered a lot.
Maria: Yeah, I think so.
Jackie : Alright. Well. For listeners, if you have any examples or questions or stories, share ’em with us in on our website becoming mindful podcast.com, or on our socials at Becoming Mindful. And while you’re there, give us a follow and check out our all, our, other episodes. Give a listen.
Maria: Yeah. Thank you for being here again and hope to have you next time as well.
Jackie : Yeah. Until then, be well.