S2E04-Mindfulness To Catalyze Change Pt 1

Hello Friends,

In this episode of The Becoming Mindful Podcast, Maria and Jackie explore how mindfulness serves as a catalyst for change. While change is constant and inevitable, mindfulness allows us to navigate it with awareness and intention rather than resistance. We discuss how society often imposes artificial expectations and control, making change feel forced and unnatural. By practicing mindfulness, we can soften our approach, recognize interconnectedness, and foster change in a way that is more balanced and holistic. The conversation also touches on sustainability, the importance of reciprocity with nature, and how embracing mindfulness can lead to societal shifts toward equity and ecological harmony.

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Assignment For This Month

We invite listeners to also read Real Change by Sharon Salzberg, which further explores mindfulness as a tool for transformation. We will review this book in our next episode.

Show Notes & Links

Transcript

S2 E04 Mindfulness to catalyze change

Maria: Hello and welcome to the becoming mindful podcast. Today we are starting a new three episode series and we want to talk about how mindfulness can lead to change and is a catalyst for change. I am Maria.

Jackie: And I am Jackie, and we are Becoming Mindful.

Maria: All right. Welcome everyone. I think we want to start off, I think we want to start off the episode as usual with a little practice.

Jackie: Yeah, just do a little coming into the moment practice,

so wherever you are, find a comfortable seat.

An invitation to close your eyes if that feels good for you.

If not, you can take a soft gaze.

Just take a few deep breaths into your belly.

Feel the whole belly expand on the inhale.

And take a full, complete exhale.

As you do, start to settle into your seat.

And let your mind begin to settle.

Let go of whatever you’re doing before this podcast.

Let go of whatever you need to do after the podcast. Simply be here now. Take a few breaths to give yourself permission to do this.

In this moment, all you need to do is breathe and be.

Notice what comes up, if there’s any discomforts.

Send your breath to any tension in your body and try to release it.

And if any thoughts come up and try to distract you from what you’re trying to focus on, just notice them without judgment and gently let them go and bring yourself back into focus.

Become intentional with where you place your attention.

Let’s take three more rounds of breath here together.

And as you finish up your last breath, begin to open your eyes if they were closed.

Come back into the moment.

Try to hold on to that presence.

And stay here with us for this discussion.

Thank you for joining me in that.

Maria: Thank you for leading us in that.

Jackie: All right. So this is, this is a cool topic. I like it. How does mindfulness create change? Because this was, it was a big theme in or is a big theme in my life. So I’m, I’m excited to talk about it.

Maria: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and how, that maybe also differs from other change. Because one of the things I was thinking about when I was doing my notes or thoughts about this topic was, if we really think about it, change is happening all the time. So it doesn’t really need mindfulness. For change

because change is always happening. That’s the only constant is change, right? Everything’s changing all the time if we want it or not. If we do anything or not,

Jackie: guess, you know, mindfulness would be more letting that happen

Maria: Yeah,

Jackie: and kind of getting out of the way almost. when we try to control change and force change, that’s when we run into friction and maybe not the desired outcomes that we want. And I don’t mean passivity and, a lack of responsibility or, or participation, but, we were all here and we have a role and, stepping up and being in that role in a mindful way is, is kind of. Nature’s way, you know, the way the organic

way. But our society has built up a lot of, artificial or, yeah, I guess artificial is a good word for it. Artificial expectations and goals and, and things that we push for and strive for and try to shoehorn that get really complicated.

Maria: mm hmm, yeah, And I, I think that to, I think the mindfulness practice gives you the ability to give space for it to unfold naturally and maybe fall into the way that it’s supposed to fall in or that

Jackie: Yeah.

Maria: is more of a integrated and holistic way.

you know, if you’re thinking about mindfulness, the connection, mind, body, spirit, thinking about being in the now and also being aware, the awareness that you get, you know, compared to.

You know, pushing for a certain change, or striving for a certain change without the mindfulness. You know, it’s kind of like you’re trying to reroute the river, and inadvertently maybe flood something, and kill another habitat, right?

Jackie: Mm hmm.

Maria: was my experience. in, you know, harmony with the river and balance with the river, but now is, there’s a conflict, right?

You have a, some action and you have a consequence to it. And, and I think that we often, you know, in our society, just do stuff. And then the, without being clear what the consequence is. And oftentimes. We can’t. You can’t know what the consequence is gonna be.

So it’s really more about the, and I think that’s what mindfulness brings us, is the, the way of being.

The way of acting. The way of, just being able to sit there and let things be. Thank you. That allows, I think, the more balanced outcome to come to play. You know, whatever that may be.

Jackie: Yeah. Absolutely. When there’s, there’s a lot of friction, I think there’s a reason for it. We’re, you know, trying to force something that’s not, like you said, like the natural way. you try to reroute the river and, Nature will find its way back. It’ll find its, the way that it wants to go. nature is such a great example of it because it persists always, you know? you talk about like the idea that if, if, Any part of an ecosystem went extinct, it would throw off everything in the ecosystem, except for people, if people went extinct, you know, everything would kind of flourish. because we’re, we’re going so against the grain and it makes, adds so much complexity to just living, just trying to be, and what would it be like if, if, if we created a society that was built on. on mindfulness and not trying to force, any particular person’s goals, but rather, a more ecological, equitable kind of mindful approach.

Because like you said, when we slow down and we, stop trying to force things, we can take a more holistic approach. you can be more mindful of all the other factors, all the other players, all the other things it’s going to affect. And,I feel like that’s where gut feeling comes from where you’re like, you know, this just doesn’t feel right because in, our brains are so intelligent and can, bring in all of those different factors, but it’s hard to materialize all of them

And, I’m not suggesting that we create a society based on gut feelings, but, but I think that’s, that’s where that comes from. Internal mechanisms. Yeah.

Maria: yeah, and that’s what I think too, is, you know, and you’re saying we don’t want to build a society based on gut feeling, but I think it needs to be also based on gut feeling.

You know, it’s like, again, the holistic approach, you know, you have higher brain

functions, you have lower brain functions, you have, your body even serves that as part of your brain as well in, in certain ways, right?

So, all of that we can’t dismiss, to just think about thoughts. Some things that we call gut feelings, are essentially just mechanisms in your body that are fast and not necessarily, we’re not necessarily able to put them into a thought, right? Because, it’s just a different way, that we don’t necessarily understand yet.

Jackie: Right. And when we ignore that and we’re just going on logic or numbers or whatever

the reasoning is, or rationality, I guess, then we miss a very human element of what’s going on, you know? I mean,

Maria: And

Jackie: when we look at

Maria: I mean, just,

Jackie: Yeah, I guess I mean human by like being like, like, yeah, like a piece of nature.

We’re a part of nature and we ignore that so often, in pursuit of other goals.

Our society just really values, rational thinking and really, disrespects, that other element, that a mindful element or a consideration of the mind. the greater world. And by greater world, I mean all of the people in it, but also the environments that, that support us, you know, the, the animals, the plants, the, the earth, just everything.

Maria: right. Yeah.

And that kind of brings me back to a thing you said earlier where you said, you know, if humans weren’t there, nature would be thriving, but we need nature, to be . It, it is like that right now. I think it is like that right now, just because the way we do not have an realistic approach anymore to being.

in our current society. But I think in general, and it reminded me of the book braiding sweetgrass. I don’t think that’s true because we are part of human nature.. Yeah. So, I think there is, a way of being for humans that is integrated with nature in a way where there’s a mutual flourishing, a mutual reciprocity, right? What like Robin Wall Kimmerer described in her book. And I think that way of being comes back again to mindfulness,

Jackie: Mm hmm.

Maria: living a life with mindfulness.

Jackie: Yeah.

Maria: my, my side on that.

Jackie: That book is such a great example of what we could be. people were thriving on this land for so long before,Europeans got here. we got here and brought over, what you’d call modern civilization Realize, I think modern civilization has this idea that, we can control nature and it’s here to serve us instead of, like you said, a reciprocity where we are a part of nature. It’s not a resource for us. I mean, it is, but we’re also a resource for it. We, we, it has to be back and forth or,

Maria: Mm hmm.

Jackie: or it dies. You know, in a, in a figurative

and a literal sense. Yeah,

Maria: I mean, it’s kind of reminded me of, you know how in nature documentaries, something bad happens to the animals or something, and usually the team, they don’t do anything, right? They don’t

interfere because they’re like, oh, we can’t interfere with nature, that’s it. It’s the natural world and it happens there where it happens and we don’t interfere.

And that always, always struck me wrong as a child and, you know, and I’m always like, well, but why?

We interfere in bad ways, but we don’t interfere in good ways. How does that make any sense?

Jackie: Totally.

I like to think of it that way too. I think this was after I read Silent Spring, which is an incredible book about the effects that, that. chemicals have on, on nature. and it was written by Rachel Carson in the fifties, I think, and she was so ahead of her time, but regardless,we are arguably the most intelligent, species on, on the earth, depending on how you want to define intelligence. but we have the ability and, and the know how, know it all to really make a huge effect on, on the planet, obviously. And that’s an incredible opportunity to help other species that need help. We’re able to create such. drastic changes to our environment. And like you said, we’ve used that power for destruction. if we flip that and, and put the same kind of economic resources toward positive change and helping our environment flourish, it’s incredibly, It’s the possibilities are endless.

I think it’s like Neil deGrasse Tyson who always says this, but we’re talking about terraforming Mars. And if we can terraform Mars, we should first be able to fix our atmosphere here

Maria: Right.

Jackie: earth, you know, before we go try to create an environment we can live in on Mars.

How about we create an environment we can live in here?

Maria: Right, why, why do you want to create a second earth when you have a first one?

Jackie: That needs our help.

But that’s part of mindfulness too. When you can stop and look at what we’re doing and really take in the effects of it, can start to see where our efforts should be going, where we could actually have a return on an investment that is. Quality of life, that quality of life for everyone, for everything.

Maria: for

Jackie: And it’s so possible.

Maria: right, right it is so possible I think You know, there’s so many I think there’s also psychological Psychological traumas and effects of traumas and coping mechanisms that extend in the way of that, I feel.

And mindfulness helps us kind of see past them.and it comes back to, you know, what we’ve read with radical acceptance is there are things that we’re not doing right.

that our ancestors have not done right. There are, you know, other people not doing right. you know, getting past the blame game or defending, you know, you know, being on the defense, against others or, to, you know, to blaming towards others.

I think that’s, that’s one of the thing, the whole nonjudgmental part of mindfulness that it is.

Thank you. You’re welcome. I feel has such a big impact, not only to heal ourselves, right? To heal our own traumas and coping mechanisms that are not correct, to allow ourselves to, accept what’s happening, you know. There’s going to be, you know, bad things happening to you. There’s going to be suffering.

That’s just how it is.because everyone, you know, at some point dies or gets sick or, disasters happen. It is not something that, will go away. but I think it also helps with Being in community and interacting with other people

Jackie: Yeah.

Maria: in a way. you know, if you have disagreements like we’ve had on topics, to not have that become a fight, to be, you know, to still be in a way where you can respect each other and, value the other person’s opinion.

Right?

Jackie: Be curious, not judgmental.

Maria: Yeah, be curious and let, you know, those things be, not, you know, your way isn’t necessarily the wrong way. And you also don’t have to feel shame when someone disagrees with you, right,

Jackie: Right, right. We get so rigid in, in some of our identities and so. So inflexible, and, and to be called out as, as wrong or as something you did, wasn’t perfect, or maybe we should do it in a better way. Maybe there’s a better way to do things or a different way. we get really defensive and one other thing that you said was, that suffering is, is going to happen. You come back to the four noble truths of Buddhism, And the First Noble Truth is that,suffering is inevitable. Suffering happens, and that’s the way that it’s translated into English. But another way to translate suffering in the Four Noble Truths is change, and that change is inevitable. And change is always going to happen. We can’t not change. And we interpret that as suffering in a lot of because we want to hold on to our comfort and what we know

and you know, not,

Maria: were able to do before and maybe now can’t anymore,

Jackie: Oh man, aging. I know I’m still young, but I’m definitely I’m, I’m not in my twenties anymore.

that humility starts to seep in imagine if, like, all of our leaders, our decision makers had humility and were able to bring in I mean, look at, just look at the science of climate change and how

resistant we are to it. It is literally an existential threat to every single thing on this planet. And People are resisting even listening to it because of they’re so entrenched in the goal of economic returns,

Maria: Can. Yeah, I mean, at this point, there is definitely certain things that we can’t reverse anymore, but, you know, again, that’s

Jackie: But there’s a, path forward.

Maria: there’s a path forward and there is, you can accept these things, the way they are, you know, the species that are extinct, they’re extinct, so, for example. Bye. I think that’s one of the things, is like, just rallying on the past, and also holding on, right? Holding on to what, to an identity, to a state of what’s going on,

Jackie: Or a community.

Maria: Yeah, just in general. Yeah, resisting change is, and so why climate change is even worse for people to, to grapple with, because it’s not even It’s a change that’s, it’s just happening to them, right? So they feel even more out of control, so most people, they use one of those coping mechanisms, which, maladaptive coping mechanism, which is denial. If

Jackie: I think

Maria: about it, if you don’t yeah, if I don’t, away.

Jackie: I think one big part of it is community. And that people find so like, community is so important to people. It is such an important part of us being a social animal.

And when your whole community is saying. you know, deny climate change. This isn’t, it’s not okay to talk about it. It’s not okay to accept it. Going against that means going against your social structure, going against your support systems, going against your friends, your family, your everything that you know is truth. And that’s really, really difficult for the human brain to accept because we need community.

Maria: Yeah, we can’t survive on our own, so, our whole being is geared towards it. Being in a society, in a community, and not being ostracized, right?

Or ostracizing

Jackie: Yeah, but that’s where individual mindfulness, comes in when, you start to look at, the, the, the messaging that you’re subjecting yourself to, what messages are you having fed to yourself? that’s, what’s going to create your reality.

we could create this, a community of, trying to solve this problem, but we, instead we have this polarized society that, you’re on one side or the other, and we’ve been, we’re so entrenched in it.

It’s so hard to come together, you know?

Maria: right? Yeah, I think it’s also a part of just the human mind that it’s really hard to break open identities. And people And the ego loves to create an identity and cling

to it. So, if I have this identity now, I, and, and one big way of establishing and fomenting your identity is the setting it off against another identity, saying,

I’m this and I’m different from this, and not that, exactly. And humans have done that all the time, throughout history. It’s like this tribe had these thoughts, and the neighboring tribe had the other thoughts. Because we’re not

Jackie: And, my

Maria: Even if they lived

Jackie: Yeah, like, my way is working for me, so yours must be wrong. instead of having the mindfulness to, find empathy and realize that another person’s experience is different from yours and they’re going to have a different approach and different reasons, and that’s not wrong. You have to learn to live in harmony with that. Not against that. Like,

Maria: wait, wait.

Jackie: yeah.

Maria: Yeah, but it’s, it’s, it’s a long, it’s, it’s hard. I mean, even in societies, you know, you know, like the Native American societies where we were talking before that lived so much more in harmony with nature and, with kind of the goal of humanity of living a nice life, right?

Like, that’s all you want, like, be with your family and, you know, the least amount of suffering and it’s all good.

even them, Even then in those societies you had those tendencies where you, you know, I’m this tribe and you’re this tribe and we’re different and we have different philosophies.

So,

Jackie: But shouldn’t that be what modern society is, is recognizing that and being mindful of it and creating a harmony with that? Like, we have the ability to create,a civilization, a society of billions of people. Can we make it harmonious? I think we can. I think we can design a harmonious living for everyone that is equitable and, strives to make the best, quality of life for everything that lives on this planet. we’re smart enough to do that.

Maria: We are.

Jackie: we can.

Maria: right. And, and, you know, let’s circle back to mindfulness and how it catalyzes change. I think you have kind of these, these circles, right? You have yourself, you know, your, integration with your body, mind, spirit, right? The whole package.and being more mindful that already creates change.

I think on a local level within you.

you are going to change. You’re going to be a different person. You’re going to tackle things differently and in a way that is, that reduces suffering.

You know, if you can, you know, like we talk with radical acceptance, if you can do that, you’re not, it’s not going to feel like suffering to you.

You’re not going to be in pain as much.

Jackie: Yeah.

Maria: because you can accept this change.

And let it be. So it’s not, it’s not like the mindfulness triggers the change but it allows the change and allows you to live with the change and not go against it.

Jackie: Yeah, it,it softens all those hard edges that we make, whether it’s,between each other, like you’re saying, or whether it’s, for these like, blinded goals that we’re, we’re looking for, or whether it’s, any ideologies that we’ve attached ourselves to and allowed ourselves to be, you know, taken on a ride with,

when really, you know, mindfulness helps us. regain autonomy, I think, you know, where I’m not, I’m not this label. I’m not that label.

I’m a human being with all these other human beings and we’re all trying to live together here. We’re all trying to thrive, right? And, and there’s a whole world out there that’s there to support me if, if I let myself be a part of it.

Maria: Right. So yeah, and that’s what I’m saying. It kind of starts with The change within you, but I think it,

Jackie:

Maria: you know, once you become, once you practice more, you expand it within you, but then you also expand it to other people. it, you know, because it, how do you act to other, towards other people? How do you listen to other people?

How do you connect with other people? so the empathy, the, the, the mindful listening, and just how the way you appear And are inclusive and allow others to have different opinions.and then they feel seen, right? And then it’s like this whole ripple effect that, yeah, this just expands through everything, right?

Mm

Jackie: It’s, it’s a tool for healing and we are

very broken world. One of the things that is, has been an incredible, incredible movement, I’ll call it lately. And I know we’ve talked about this a lot, is healing generational trauma. What behaviors have we passed down generation after generation Someone needs to heal that.

And there’s a whole generation of people doing that right now and using the internet and other tools of connection to heal and mindfully, take new steps forward in a, in a different way. And that’s been incredible.that’s a great sign of, of mindfulness permeating our, our whole culture.

Maria: Yeah, just think, also just think about the general parenting stuff we were

Jackie: Yeah.

Maria: right?

Different ways of parenting and how that inevitably changes things, right?

Jackie: yeah,

Maria: because, you know, how you were brought up and what happened in your childhood is such a big deal later in life.

And it’s such a, it makes a big difference of how you. You interact in the world and what you do for and in the world when you have either a traumatic childhood or a very supportive and non traumatic, supporting, yeah, supportive childhood. childhood, right? It makes such a big difference because then you don’t have to heal from your childhood.

So this whole time of having to heal from your childhood is gone, where you can

do things and where you can, you know, really make a difference in the world.

Jackie: right,

Maria: so yeah, absolutely so important.and then the other thing, I think, that goes on top of that is Not only the healing, but also like the division of what do we want to create in life?

And we’ve talked about the first, the solar punk movement, right? It’s like this, what can we see? What can we, what do we want? And how do we come to a harmonious, inclusive, style of living that really, you know, works with the environment and us.

Jackie: right. And it’s, it’s a very hard question to answer because our lives are cha our world is changing so quickly. It’s not about like finding an answer and then we’re done.

It’s like, we need to find a way to move with how everything changes, how, how, and be adaptive and be flexible. Yeah. We, we can’t just be rigid and say, this is how it’s going to be. And we’re done now. we have to constantly be reacting. And that’s, that’s the mindfulness part. That’s, that’s being here and taking the world as it is in this moment and responding to it.

Maria: Responding. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that reminds me of something, sad guru said about, responsibility and like rephrasing it as responsibility is the ability to respond.

Jackie: Hmm.

Maria: you know, going back to the word

and it’s like, you know, how do we respond if we respond in a mindful way?and obviously response doesn’t mean that you have to do something about everything, but if you can see that responsibility is the ability to respond, suddenly you’re responsible for the whole world.

And, But it doesn’t mean like it’s a burden or something. It’s like, you know, in which way can you respond? Whatever way you can, right?

Jackie: Right. That’s, A really, a really beautiful concept that I love in, in yoga philosophy and, several eastern philosophies, I should say, is the, the concept of dharma, which is to find your innate qualities, what makes you uniquely you, and then also seeing the world exactly how it is. With your eyes open and then finding the connection between the two, where, where does the world need you to serve or respond?

That’s what we need more of instead of, you know, a lot of, a lot of top down authoritative kind of, design of our lives has led to,Yeah, it’s led to a lot of needs being unmet and a lot of disharmony with, with ourselves, with, with nature, with everything.

I mean, mindfulness restores that autonomy again, like it, it, it brings it back.

It, it gives you a sense of self and a sense of community. Like you find your individual place within everything. It’s, it’s very magical.

Maria: Yeah, and I think it also, extends to not only finding your own place and how you can serve, and bring yourself into the equation. but it also lets you find ways how the community can give back to you.

Like being able to ask for help, for example.

Jackie: feeling supported.

Maria: Right.

Yeah.

Jackie: it’s so, it’s so incredible, if you stop to think about all of the things that are supporting you being here right now, all the way down to, the air that the trees are cleaning for you to breathe, it’s just incredible. there are so many things supporting you and here for you, and having gratitude for that, it’s, I mean, you really have to stop and and let that permeate you. Yeah.

Maria: Yeah. You have to be in the now. You have to be present to be able to see that all

Jackie: the only way once you start to appreciate that,there’s clean water and you have to have that, you’ll start to respect water, you’ll start to respect trees. You’ll start, and same thing with our fellow humans or the animals that create the ecosystems around us, we have to be mindful and appreciate them and see, the symbiotic or the, the reciprocity of that relationship to then, create lives that, that respect that whole ecosystem, that, that whole thing that we’re a part of. Instead of living in a silo, like, I feel like we often do. Yeah.

Maria: not only do you suddenly appreciate everything, you know, every tree, every plant, and you can see their suffering. I think that is another part is you see their suffering. And a lot of people are at that point already that they see the suffering, but then it’s too much pain. But if you look at suffering from a mindful perspective, do you see that what, what you feel, what hurts you seeing that is really your love. It’s because you, you have empathy and love and gratitude and appreciation for all of that,

all of the people, all of the plants and animals. And that is what, what is painful.

That is the feeling, right?

So,

Jackie: But I mean,

Maria: you reframe it like that and look at it from a mindful perspective, you can see, like, it doesn’t have to overwhelm you. It’s, it’s because you love everything and you want to, you know, help.

Jackie: and looping that back to mindfulness, creating change, then that is what motivates you. That is what takes you out into the world, knowing the suffering that’s out there and knowing where, what needs help and what needs just, or just compassion. Yeah. Just what needs acknowledgement, you know, that’s, then that’s how you show up in the world.

That’s how you show up at, in your relationships, at your job, as a parent, as, as a consumer, that’s going to permeate through all of your choices and behaviors. And that’s, that’s how it creates change, and it’s, it’s kind of like little tiny steps all along the way, but it’s, those are really important steps. Like, yeah,

Maria: Yeah. How was that about? Each drop falls to the ocean or something.

Jackie: yeah, I don’t remember, but yeah, I mean, the ocean is full of individual drops of rain and you need them all to make the ocean, but

Maria: That’s right. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think we’ve come to a point,

Jackie: well,

we’re turning to the great Sharon Salzberg for some additional wisdom on this topic. We are reading Real Change. By Sharon Salzberg. We’ve both started it. It’s already incredible. I love it.but it’s all about how mindfulness, can be a catalyst for change. And, she’s just, she’s incredible. I just, I, I love, I love her so much.

Maria: and she writes very well as well, so I’m, I’m, really enjoying it. I’m, you know, halfway through the first chapter, but, enjoying it.

Jackie: It’s good if you need, if you need, if you need to clean up your socials or anything. I would suggest following Sharon Salzburg, like I. Love seeing her posts. They are so positive and so thoughtful and they always make me pause. So I mean, social media is a questionable medium sometimes, but just follow someone like Sharon Salzberg and it’ll, it’ll brighten up your feed for sure. That’s my advice.

Maria: Yeah,

and I, yeah. And with that, I think our assignment would be, for, in the time between. this episode and the next if you want to also pick up the book and read it. I have, I have it right here. Real change.

Jackie: Yeah. Feel free to reach out to us while you’re reading it. with any, with any insights or. Or comments.

Maria: Yeah.

check out your local library and see if it’s there.

Jackie: Mm

Maria: otherwise, Yeah. Let us know how you feel about it.

And then next month we’re gonna review the book. Okay. Mhm.

Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us today.as always, please follow us on, on socials at Becoming Mindful Podcast. reach out with any questions, or comments or any conversations you’d, you’d like to have with us. We’d love to hear your feedback. But otherwise, enjoy Real Change, and we’ll be back in a month to talk about it. Until then, be well.

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