Hello Friends,
In this episode of The Becoming Mindful Podcast, Maria and Jackie begin a beautiful series around our Reciprocity with Nature. In this first part, we discuss our own experiences and observations about humanity’s connection with mother nature and our own primal nature. If you can, take this pod outside and listen under a tree.
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Assignment For This Month
Read The Serviceberry by Robin Wall Kimmerer
Show Notes & Links
- Find the book at these independent sellers or at your local library or bookstore.
Transcript
S2 E07
Maria: Hello and welcome to the Becoming Mindful Podcast. Today we’re starting a new three episode series and we want to talk about our relationship to nature and the disconnect, that we are experiencing in the current world. I am Maria.
Jackie: And I’m Jackie, and we are becoming mindful.
Maria: All right,
Jackie: All right, welcome.
friends.
Maria: we start with a little centering exercise?
Jackie: Yeah, let’s take a moment to arrive. So find a comfortable seat wherever you are. Give your weight to your chair or wherever you’re sitting, invitation to close your eyes if that feels good for you. And just let your mind rest on your breath for a moment. Just take note of your natural breath, feel your shoulders relax down your back, relax the muscles of your face, and we’ll take a few breaths. We’ll do some three part breathing. So on your next inhale, first, feel your inhale in your belly. Then feel it, expand your chest, and then feel it up by your collarbone. And as you exhale, reverse that motion collarbone. Chest belly again. Inhale belly ribs, collarbone. And exhale reverse. Take a few more breaths like this. Start to smooth out that transition. Make your breath like a wave. Take one more breath like that. And when you come to the bottom of your exhale, release the technique and just breathe naturally. Notice how you feel. Just let your mind rest on your breath. When you’re ready, you can gently flutter your eyes open. Allow yourself to come back into this moment. Welcome back.
All right. I am very excited about this topic. I think I can speak for you as well that this is a topic that’s very near and dear to our hearts
Maria: Mm-hmm.
Jackie: Let’s start it off by kind of setting the stage. let’s talk about our connection with nature. Yeah.
Maria: Yeah. So for me, I’ve always felt nature was something that was very important. And I felt like there’s definitely something spiritual in that connection for me. just the wonder and the beauty and the intelligence in nature, the cycles and the different ways, how. Ecosystems interact and, the role, the different animals and plants and inanimate, I guess some,
Don’t call them inanimate, but,
yeah, definitely. Very important for me, that connection. And I’ve always had this feeling when I’m outside, when I’m out in nature, when I’m gardening or just sitting in the sun, it has a very specific quality to it.
Jackie: Yeah. I like how you said intelligence of it. it’s got its own brain. but I’m very similar. I think, growing up we always had a connection to nature. I knew like when we would go camping and spend a week in nature, you leave feeling different like in.
In what I recognize now as in a spiritual way. you feel refreshed, physically, mentally, spiritually renewed. There’s just something there. for a long time though, before I started my mindfulness practice, I really compartmentalized it where, there was. Those times when I’d spend time in nature or I’d go hiking or camping or go on vacation, something like, standing in front of the Grand Canyon or something.
it’s awe inspiring. But then I would kind of put that away and go back to my regular life and get back in the flow of, I don’t know, regular life. And it wasn’t until, I started practicing mindfulness that I found a deeper connection with that, a constant connection with that, and a connection more to a primal nature within myself. a deep
connection that, removes that separateness.
Maria: I love how you said you returned to the flow and then you paused. And my first thought was, the non flow
Jackie: Yeah, exactly right,
Maria: it’s like
the flow was there. Yeah. And I have the same experience with, that separateness and that The mindfulness experience in our path that we’ve been on really strengthened that connection and that understanding of how it is all one, and you can’t separate it.
appreciating
being part of it.
Jackie: Right, right. And I know a big theme around this whole topic that we’re going to get into is. Our reciprocity with nature and just, when I said going back to my regular life, going back to the flow of, I dunno, society, I guess getting back into that inertia, it’s very disconnected, a way that really disserves us.
a lot of times we see that as. A positive or as an evolution or as a good thing where, we can control nature and it’s this separate thing and it’s resources for us, but we are nature, the air is the air we all breathe and the resources are what sustain us, what we are, and we
aren’t any. Different from the trees or the animals in a sense that it’s an ecosystem and every part plays a role, and we are a role in that. And not in a hierarchical sense, but in a secular sense.
Maria: Yeah. yeah, it comes down to the individualistic view of it versus the systems view of it. Again, and yes, that is something that definitely, happened to me as well, that I was in that mindset. I think I’m pretty sure it wasn’t when I was a child. That is something that happened that was taught and,
although it’s talked about as something positive, like you said, the experience everyone has with these small reconnections to nature, things like camping or whatever, or doing on vacation into nature. I think. Is a in a strong indication thatthis is an illusion of what you’re seeing as positive.
a really, like a wound, like a soul wound. you’re missing something
Jackie: Right.
Maria: it’s a disconnection, it’s a severance and it’s
as if you are taken away from your parents in a way too,
now that, I’m on this path. when I think about it, it makes me really emotional actually.
Jackie: yeah. Rightfully
so.
Maria: yeah.
Jackie: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s. Yeah, it’s hard to describe because the more I practice, the more I, meditate or,create more of a mindful lifestyle. however, I’m able to cultivate that, Without force or without even intention, honestly, you still are brought back to that connection. It’s something about, calming the mind and letting all of the ideas that, we’ve been taught about life fade into the background and all of a sudden you are back in this deep connection with, Your true nature really. you start to get in more sync with the changes of, like natural cycles of the sun or,of the seasons. we’ve really commodified even time in that sense, and getting back to our natural, rhythms of time and sleep and wake As I’m saying this, I’m just realizing and wanna note what a privileged position this is because these ideas of, just live on natural time and live with the sun is something that, we can’t do when we have to get up and work and we have jobs and people that care for, and things to do.
So it’s not like we can just abandon everything, but there is. Something to be said and maybe we need to re-look at how our society is structured and expectations in our communities.
Maria: Yeah, Yeah, and I think the. The important focus here is on the word we, because again, as an individual you can’t do that by yourself.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: And we’ve, in the few last, I don’t know, hundreds of years, humanity has worked very hard to numb this connection. And
as we know, it had to work really hard because it was against.
What’s natural and feels right,
and as you said, like it’s so easy to go back into this connection. But on the other hand, it is not always easy to fully go into the connection maybe, in a complete way because of the way society is structured right now
and. Like you said, it’s already privileged for us to even, contemplate and do some of these,going with natural cycles.
But even then, even from the very privileged position I am now in, I still can’t do that completely.
Jackie: Mm-hmm.
Maria: I can’t say I want to, Sleep till the sun comes up when it’s winter and I have to work.
Jackie: Oh,
Right.
right.
Maria: and I already recognize that there is a lot that I’ve been able to, do. And find my way back to that. But there is lots of people that really can’t do that right now.
Jackie: Mm-hmm.
Maria: And this is where I think the community comes in as a. Means of helping each other
and, allowing this for each other and not letting each other starve and numb, and not only from a physical and materialistic perspective, but also from a mind and soul perspective like this.
Starvation of the individual in isolation.
one of the, one of the ways of nature is like to and Yeah. And provide for each other.
Jackie: Yeah, when we think about the individual versus the community, both are so important. we look at. Our journeys here, working with mindfulness, and that’s where you really start to cultivate and develop that value, that personal connection. It’s so important and foundational to building communities because what we truly value, what we’re willing to fight for, What we know is important is what we’re going to bring out in our communities. It’s what we’re going to, strive for, in building communities. you look at what in an individual can do in say, like a small neighborhood, everyone’s talking about that neighbor who rewild their lawn and creates, Gardens and,natural landscapes. From the perspective and the values of my family, those are revered. And, we hold up those examples and want to replicate them. It’s so important to start with yourself and start where you can. And what you have influence over and help to inspire that in the
communities around you and let it ripple out, right?
Maria: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s so interesting how just little things can like really have an impact and change things. And I’ve noticed so many, I don’t know if I wanna call them synchronicities in the last few years. It’s really interesting. So one example is, we both have talked about permaculture and,
and, this kind of different relationship with gardening and with, agriculture, right?
Jackie: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Maria: Jason and I were just,
watching some instructional videos about, permaculture and rain gardens and like trying to plan for our, yard here. So, and the person that’s teaching is talking about, rain Garden first. You start with that, at least in, in his philosophy and in my neighborhood we have,a magazine that they put out, for activities and all those kinda things. in the city or in the village.
Suddenly there is something about rain gardens and that there are workshops and like they’re giving away, rain barrels and they’re teaching these workshops on how to create rain gardens.
I’m like, what is going on? This is so crazy. and then just last week, there was this guy coming by and I wrote something on my, substack about it as well.
And he was for long treatment, So I’m like, no, I don’t wanna put anything on my lawn, especially because we were going to, plan our yard for more like a permaculture,design And, he said, yeah, but it’s not toxic and everything like that, it’s all environmentally friendly.
And I said no. and then I shared that, yeah, we actually were going to, do more like this design from a permaculture perspective and permaculture guilds and actually get rid of. 90% of the lawn. Maybe we’ll have a little patch on the back. For a play,
sitting area or whatever.
and he just lit up and then he was telling me that his background was actually an ecological, biology, no,what is it called? Yeah, something like that.
Jackie: Wow.
Maria: like he wa he knew all this stuff,and he was like, working in, regenerative ecological agriculture.
I didn’t ask him in specific how he ended up with the non treatment company, but it’s like you could see that there was this, oh man, there’s something there and it like really lit him up. And I think he remembered something that maybe he had forgotten
with this exchange. And I was just like, this is it, That’s why we have to talk and do these things together. And I was
just, yeah. so I’m thinking, I’m feeling this is happening. Like we’re coming back to this relationship that. Our birthright, our innate way of being. So,
Jackie: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a beautiful story. it’s unfortunate that he had to find work and something that doesn’t sound
like is very aligned with him, but.
the whole concept of, lawn treatments is an interesting one in that, everyone has a lawn. Everyone who owns, a house outside of a city is gonna have a little bit of a plot of land with a lawn on it that. talking about permaculture and monocultures, a lawn is a monoculture. It’s not a native plant, that it’s typically not a native plant. that we’re forcing to try to live in a way that we want it to live. And we pay for these treatments to try to force it to look the way we want it to look. And we’re spending money and we’re. Spending time and effort, and for what? I really think it comes back to why am I doing this? why are we
spending money on this? Why are we forcing this? it’s harming pollinators. It’s harming your pocketbook. Honestly, if you wanna get to that level,it’s an odd thing, but we’ve normalized it so much that it’s expected and. people are proud of their green lawns. that’s where we’re at. And it’s so odd to me. I respect different people’s opinions, but,I think we went astray
in that when it comes to our
yards. Yeah.
Maria: Yeah.
it’s also some sort of skewed beauty standard of
what we label as beautiful and what
we don’t label as beautiful, and even the concept of labeling anything in nature as not beautiful is.
So strange. And we do it with plants, obviously with the garden, right?
my lawn there’s like leaves on there. It looks, a little bit wild, but why is that not beautiful? And then it comes back to thinking, we’ve done this tour. Sally with our own species of
what’s beautiful, what’s not beautiful, and it’s like,
why? Why do we concern ourselves with that?
I don’t know. So
Jackie: I know lawns go back to some royalty. I don’t know if you, I
Maria: Well,
it’s a status symbol. If you can keep
a lawn like that,
Jackie: you own land and you don’t have.
to grow your own food.
You have money to have other people grow food for you. And it was this status symbol showing that you weren’t a peasant, you didn’t need to grow your own food and. Use your land for your sustenance. You used other land.
Maria: Yeah.
You can just use it for a frivolous
Jackie: yeah.
Maria: thing of this immaculate lawn. And you have obviously staff that takes care of this land.
Jackie: Because it’s not natural. You have to force it essentially. And
you mentioned permaculture and I wanted to mention too, this brings it right into it. Permaculture it has three pillars, which are earth care, people care and fair share. So permaculture itself is, it’s the gardening and the ecosystems, but it’s also,I’ll say it’s political.
it’s bigger. It’s about equity and realizing that you are a part of nature, but you’re also a part of your community and you’re a part of your neighbors and you’re all in this together. it
brings in. Everyone,
Maria: Yeah, it aligns with, what we’ve talked about with solar punk. it’s very
much, there’s
Jackie: totally.
Maria: 99% overlap.
Jackie: Yeah,
Maria: permaculture doesn’t really look at the technology as much, where solar punk does allow for the impact of technology,
but yeah, you’re right. it is more than that.
And this is also the relationship with nature, how it is not just with the plants or the other animals that are not humans. it also involves our relationship with our fellow humans. Of course.
Jackie: And when we abstract our. Food growth, our natural environment around us. when we aren’t directly connected to that, when you go to the grocery store and you just buy food and you don’t know who grew it, you don’t know how it was grown. And there’s a loss of. I think like gratitude, there’s a loss of connection there when you have a garden and you grow something yourself there’s just a feeling there that it feels really nurturing, you feel really taken care of, right?
you don’t have the connection to it, and so you don’t value it as much,
Maria: it’s like you don’t feel the, yeah, like you said, gratitude for it. And it’s not as valuable and it
doesn’t taste as good
Jackie: Right. Well,
when we’re delegating that work to someone else, they’re gonna grow it in the most efficient way possible for profit. we’re trying to just churn out as much food as possible, we end up depleting the soil of nutrients and, we end up with ecological disasters like the Dust Bowl.
and I have to pause here because. agriculture is the way that we feed so many people. and that system got us to where we are. There’s so many people who wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for mass farming, and that I want to appreciate and acknowledge. But then also at the same time, say we’re at a point in society that we can reinnovate. And move on from here and find better ways of doing things. And while that will require an investment of time, of energy, of innovation, of money, those are the things that we should be investing in.
that’s where we should take our society. We should take it forward and re-look at our systems.
And I agree with you. like the mass agriculture has given us the freedom to be able to feed everyone, but it has
Maria: gone beyond that because it is coupled
with a system that runs by profit.
Jackie: yep.
Maria: so we are making too much food in a way that depletes the earth and it’s not reaching everyone.
Jackie: Right.
Maria: you’re not even fulfilling your goal of feeding everyone. And you’re right, the technology and the innovations and what we should invest our resources and resources of all kind in should be to find a better way.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: if you need to use ai, why don’t you use it for something like that where you can have
a regenerative way of creating food or allowing everyone to eat,
whatever.
Like it can take, it can do the heavy lifting and the planning and the resource, managing. Sure.
Jackie: right.
it’s so difficult in the system that we have, when profits always have to go up, there’s no incentive to pause and be mindful and reflect on what we’re doing and then come up with a new way, especially when that new way might not be as. Profitable, but
it would be more beneficial to the world.
we don’t have a system that rewards that and asks us to do that, or even allows many people to do
Maria: Even allows that. Yeah. Yeah. And
you’ve seen initiatives, grassroots initiatives being squashed
for no reason,
yes. For a reason that it, undermines the. Prophet hoarding the resource, hoarding of the few. But, yeah,
and this is the disconnection from nature and from our fellow people, you don’t see the suffering anymore.
And you don’t feel for the suffering, and you’re not aware and mindful of what. You are doing and what you can do and what’s
even out there, people
coming together to, to do things. and I’ve seen, this shift a little bit recently and I know maybe this is also a bubble of that I’m in where I find the people that are doing these kind of, More, wellbeing oriented, type of ways of working and working together and, little economies that are more focused on sharing than, profit. seeing more and more companies that, spring up have more of a decentralized co-op type.
for, purpose versus for profit.
kind of Model. but this might also be just my bias of seeing this more because I’m looking for it, right?
What you’re looking for. You we’ll see, you
will find.
Jackie: Yeah. But you hit it head on when, we just stop being mindful of the ways that we are so disconnected and the ways that we are,ruining our own environment where we live. And I think, even when it comes right to our doorstep, we still. Try not to think about it.
Like I’m thinking about when,animals are wandering through neighborhoods like bears or deer or something and people are upset about the wildlife and,animals encroaching on their space and we forget that, we. Built in their environment, we built in their home. or we look at things like wildfires happening in subdivisions and we built subdivisions in places where natural wildfires happened. not talking about manmade wildfires, which many of them are, but natural wildfires happen. Natural things happen and we. Still say, now how can we control this? How can we push back on nature? How can we force this not to happen anymore instead of accepting how nature is and working with it. there are examples of working with it. I’m thinking right now of things like the wildlife crossings over highways and things like that.
we do things here and there, but very. On a broad scale, we really try to say, now how do we eliminate this problem of nature? how do we push it away?
Maria: And Yeah, and think about things like hurricanes and flights in like Florida,
like not some of the
crazy stuff that’s been happening, going a lot higher in the country, but there’s certain areas that experience that. And the
people there, they know this and they know how to deal with this, but I think it, it’s not even yet to the extent of what it could be because.
on one hand it’s okay, building a permanent residence in an area that is constantly will have hurricanes and always had,hurricanes. it’s getting worse with climate change for sure
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: a lot worse. But it’s not something that has been irregular there.
So, how can you live in a way That you live with this nature, this is how nature is there, and that’s how you can live there. And how can you accommodate for that in a mindful way? And then on top of that,if it does, destroy Roy, people’s livelihoods,
how
can you help them? Without finger pointing
or withholding the help.
Jackie: And
you’re right.
it’s a bigger problem than. Just individuals, right? It’s a community problem, like you said. How do we help them? not everyone’s in a position to be able to move out of hurricane country. So how then as a society, how do we solve this problem? How do we help those huge populations of people who are affected by this? And Coming back to mindfulness and pausing and thinking about what’s happening. We need to become mindful of climate change and how we are affecting it. and help to create systems that bring us in a more. Natural, sustainable, pattern of living and create systems that don’t add to climate change. there are so many initiatives going on, not so much in the United States, but more so, across the sea of ideas that a lot of people in our country are. Resistant to and I can’t see any good reason for resisting them except that they’ll cost money and we’ll have to do something and we’ll have to maybe change some things.
And that’s where
mindfulness comes in, right? Mindfulness creates people who can change and look at the bigger picture and accept new ideas. I think
that’s the biggest part.
Maria: Yeah.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: Yeah, definitely the acceptance and resilience in the face of changes,
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: because I think most people do not have this. They fall back to the denial part, right?
Jackie: It’s comfortable to say, we don’t have to deal with this. I don’t need to think about this. And I’ll just
go on in the way that I know to go on. and it’s uncomfortable to think that we are destroying the world we live in.that’s uncomfortable.
it comes to this not wanting to feel guilty because a lot of the time, the way people are brought up, when you feel guilty, it immediately leads to shame, which
Yeah,
Maria: obviously A broken way.
Jackie: right. Bring in
some Brene Brown.
Maria: yeah, and I think
This whole disconnection that we are talking about it has rippled into so many areas
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: that now it takes so much healing. To bring us even to the point where we can start
thinking about, helping the world. Because you first have to help yourself, and if you can’t do that, then there’s nothing you can do.
Jackie: yeah, you have to first help yourself. And so much of our society discourages that
and again, it’s uncomfortable and you can go through life without ever healing, but. I
don’t know. That’s where we need more mindfulness. We
need everyone deserves healing.
Maria: everyone deserves it. and that’s why I think a mindful. Way of living helps future generations so much too. Because the only reason why this is uncomfortable is because you’re not used to it. If
you’re used to that, if that’s the way you live as a child and grow up with, you are not gonna feel the same resistance.
Yeah, it won’t because this
is what you know, which is also one of the things, in like trauma and therapy is where, people that have created, strong coping mechanisms with, childhood trauma and other things is they will actively recreate situations or that kind of vibe because that’s what they know
Jackie: Yeah.
yeah, We repeat. What we know.
Absolutely.
Maria: Yeah.
Feels safer when
it’s something you already know, because you already know how to deal with it.
Jackie: And you found these ways to cope with, you know, uncertainty and fear and ways of staying away from that. And you get into those patterns and you get very rigid. and that’s. Totally understandable. That’s how we get through tough things. but then at some point, when you get enough courage and community, you can start to heal that.
And that’s why mindfulness is really scary for a lot of people and that’s totally understandable.
Maria: yeah, but that’s also why it’s so important.
Jackie: Absolutely. I’m gonna name drop a book. It’s anti-fragile and it’s a very westernized way of looking at what we’re talking about, but I really appreciated this book about being anti-fragile and getting out of rigid patterns and rigid thinking and being able to just flow with. Presence, I guess is the best way to put it.
But if you’re looking for a book to read, that one is a really good one. But it’s about changing your entire experience.we find these patterns of ways of dealing with everything, like denial and just staying away from things. Like thinking about climate change and how much information we have about it, how much scientific research we have about it, and still having denial it’s not a problem of intelligence or understanding.
That’s not what it is. it’s mindfulness. it’s being able to be uncomfortable.
Maria: yeah.
and it’s also the compassion, right? The compassion that you get with mindfulness of
seeing yourself in everything and. The connection again to nature. Because if you’re disconnected and you only see yourself, you are going to be, why am I doing this? Why?
I don’t wanna change,
this is fine as it is.
The other
people can do that.
Jackie: Or what do I get out of it? it’s
hard to see the benefits when you don’t slow down.
Maria: Yeah.
And if you see the connection, if you feel the connection to everything else, then you can be compassionate with. The animals, for example, that are going extinct or the people that are losing their homes,
the connection and the compassion that you can feel.
The deep compassion and connection that is like we talked about within our last series. Is really the fuel
Jackie: Yeah,
Maria: change.
Jackie: and the resilience too,
because those are really heavy emotions like compassion brings on. to feel and notice and appreciate the suffering, not the suffering around you, but also the suffering that you are causing. Like we do cause suffering. And that’s a really hard thing to look at, And who wants to look at that? you don’t generally want to look at that, but with mindfulness and with this practice. You can, I don’t know. There’s just something that opens that door.
Maria: You create the space
inside of yourself, the hold, the grief, and the compassion, which they are intertwined, right?
Jackie: Perfect. Yeah. Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you. Well put. Yeah.
Maria: Yes. So circling back to the connection with nature and the reciprocity is that the compassion, the mindfulness is really a foundation to allowing that connection. Because the connection can only be there. The reciprocity can only be there if you do
have that compassion,
Jackie: You know, creating that space and holding that space for others, it comes back to you. it comes back to you as gratitude and love and connection and appreciation, and you can’t get to those things without first holding that space for all that other big stuff. It’s right on the other side.
So it’s hard to do and it’s heavy, but it’s not entirely altruistic. it comes back to you.
Maria: Yeah. that depends on the definition of what’s altruistic. altruistic is always seen as you don’t get anything back. But is there really anything you can do that you don’t get anything back?
Jackie: exactly.
’cause we’re still connected.
Maria: I think it is a little bit misleading to call something not entirely altruistic because that’s like a misnomer. I don’t know.
Jackie: No, totally. that’s true. And I’m gonna date myself, but there was a friends episode where Phoebe was trying to find a selfless act, and she couldn’t find one because every time she did a selfless act, it made her feel good. Let’s call into question the definition of altruistic, like it’s a Yeah. reciprocity comes back.
Maria: It comes back
Jackie: We’re not living in a vacuum.
Maria: yeah, and it comes back to also karma.
Jackie: Absolutely. Everything ripples out. Yeah.
Maria: All right. Well
thank you Jackie for this wonderful talk and thank you to all the
listeners.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: we are always happy to have any comments, feedback. we would love to, discuss with you guys and, If you haven’t yet, follow us. on becoming mindful podcast.com or on socials at Becoming Mindful Podcast.
Jackie: Yes. And looking forward to our next episode. we are going to be reading the Service Berry. so that is your homework for next, episode. We are going to be discussing that book. Another beautiful choice discussing the reciprocity with nature. yeah, so take a look, grab that book. we’ll put some links in the show notes for some resources to buy that book from some independent sellers, and we’ll see you then. Until then, be well.
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