Hello Friends,
In this episode of The Becoming Mindful Podcast, Maria and Jackie continue our series around our Reciprocity with Nature. In this episode, we invite outside wisdom by discussing Robin Wall Kimmerer’s book, The Serviceberry. This book dives into the economy of natural ecosystems and explores the concept of a gift economy.
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Assignment For This Month
Participate in the gift economy in some way. Find a way to give and receive.
Show Notes & Links
- Find the book at these independent sellers or at your local library or bookstore.
Transcript
S02E08 The Serviceberry Book Study
Maria: Hello, and welcome to the Becoming Mindful Podcast. Today, we continue with the second episode of our miniseries about connection to nature, and we’re bringing in some outside wisdom by reviewing Robin Wall Kimmerer’s book, The Serviceberry. I am Maria.
Jackie: And I am Jackie, and we are becoming mindful.
Maria: Oh, welcome.
Jackie: Welcome back, and should we start with a little centering exercise?
Maria: Yes, let’s do that.
Jackie: All right. We could do some simple box breathing today, which is an excellent practice for when you just need to calm down. You can pull this one out anytime you’re feeling stressed or anxious. You just wanna get back to a baseline.
So wherever you are, let’s take a comfortable seat, invite you to close your eyes if that feels good for you. Otherwise, just take a soft gaze. Just take a few moments to settle physically into your seat and settle your mind. You can let your thoughts rest on your breath and notice your breath as you sit here. Don’t need to change it or anything. Just observe it. We’ll begin some simple four-count box breathing, very simple, so you can just follow my instructions. We’ll all begin by emptying all of our breath. And now take an inhale for a count of four. 3, 2, 1. Hold at the top for 4, 3, 2, 1, and exhale for 4, 3, 2, 1. Hold at the bottom for 4, 3, 2, 1. for 4, 3, 2, 1. Hold for 4, 3, 2, 1. Exhale. 4, 3, 2, 1. Hold for 4, 3, 2, 1. The inhale and hold. Exhale and hold the inhale hold. Exhale. Hold. Take two more rounds. Counting to As you finish up, when you’re done, you can release the breath technique and just sit quietly, turn to a natural breath, and notice any effects that the breathing technique may have had. No right or wrong, just notice. You can gently flutter your eyes back open. Come back into the moment. Hopefully, you feel a little more content, a little more evened out. You can. Begin this beautiful discussion about Robin Wall Kimmerer’s book, the serviceberry.
Maria: Yes, absolutely. Wonderful book. I’m excited. I think it neatly ties into what we talked about last month.
Jackie: A reciprocity with nature, which is foundational to so much of that wisdom
Maria: She ties it very nicely to the title of the book, the Service Berry, talking about how the serviceberries interact with their environment and the abundance that is created by the earth. And, sharing that abundance, which is, very much, the basis of indigenous wisdoms.
We’ve discussed this before, particularly in relation to Braiding Sweetgrass, where she already mentioned the honorable harvest, the way humans interact, and the flow of abundance that results from our interactions with nature, because we are part of nature. And living in a sort of gift economy, that was pretty much eradicated as well by the colonial forces, as it didn’t fit into their worldview. Still, it also very much, showcases that very connected way of being with nature and understanding the intricacies and cycles of nature. in a way that when you come, probably at the time from the western, view, right from the European view. that they couldn’t even really comprehend what kind of technology that actually is, right?
How much wisdom is in there?
Jackie: Yeah, it seems so, inspirational as someone living in Western society. Like something that almost feels so foreign, almost, given the structures and the ideas that we’re brought up with and that are normalized to us. It’s the law of the land that we’ve been living on for so long, and yet it still feels almost intangible, like a pipe dream.
Maria: Yeah, she talks about the comparison to the mindset of scarcity on which our society is formed. Viewing the land and everything that you grow as private property, as things that can be used.
The indigenous view of having that intimate relationship, where everything on Earth is a gift, and that shapes completely the way you interact with it. You know how much you feel responsible for it as well. Because a gift is not something that you hoard, I think it’s also just the definition, the whole definition of wealth, right? In considering how much can be shared, such as the flow within the system.
As the wealth versus the hoarding of a resource, and all that was, permeated the whole worldview. even just this idea of the, and she talks about that in the book too, of the greedy person, right? The rational person will always act in self-interest. That was described in the tragedy of the commons by Garrett Hardin, and then how that concept works. In stark contrast to the way many indigenous cultures lived and thought, as well as how people interact. But there are countless ways to see that’s not how people are.
That we have the capacity for empathy, reciprocity, trust, and helping each other, which, obviously, we also have the capacity for greed, but it’s not as if we are predestined to be one way or the other.
Jackie: People wouldn’t be greedy if there weren’t some reward
Maria: Yes.
Jackie: I say that like this system kind of breeds that, but I really loved that. She pointed out in the book that it is systems, but the systems are run by real people, by individuals who have the power to continue them or to effect change, and there is a piece of accountability there as well.
So when we talk about greed, it might be a product of the system, but it’s an individual’s responsibility to think about the whole, to have a more holistic view.
Maria: Something we teach very regularly, but.
Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, as you said, like this, the system, the way it’s built now, or the society supports and promotes that way of thinking, and then it, in turn, actually produces. Does the person who is like that, right? It’s a chicken egg kind of thing, right? That you come into these cycles where it just gets perpetuated.
Jackie: She used the term manufactured scarcity, right?
Maria: We’re producing the scarcity that perpetuates these. It’s a manmade concept. We came up with that concept, and that’s also the reason why we can abandon that concept if we don’t want it anymore. In a way, she also points out that we already know how to live in a more reciprocal way. We just need to remember and trust.
And to build that trust and foster that and practice that, she mentioned, for example, that we know this already. She mentions Rebecca Sonet in “Paradise Built in Hell,” noting that it’s obvious when disasters or crises occur. People often fall back easily into this gift economy, a reciprocal way of being.
They help each other and they give to help people. And she says that when human survival is threatened, compassionate acts take precedence over market economies, every time. The only thing is, this is something that we can already do. We already know how to do this, and we already know it’s the right way.
It’s something we crave. A lot of people crave that way of being. We know that’s how we really want to be. But we’ve been conditioned to think that’s impossible. So it’s really a matter of practicing that feeling and that knowing, and that trust in that different way is possible.
Jackie: Yeah, I’m a big fan of weather and follow weather systems and things. And after a big tornado, they’ll talk about how the best community came together, helping them find a place to sleep, clean up, rebuild, and get the help they needed. It’s funny ’cause everyone talks about it like it’s this special community thing that happened in their place. And this is in the best, most positive way, but it’s not special. It’s everyone. That’s how people are naturally. We naturally want to help when we can and be there for people. This is a natural thing. And when a big disaster happens or we’re faced with real tragedy, life and death, that comes back up, that’s like our natural state that we go back into. It’s there in all of us.
Maria: Yeah. I think you may need to discern that a little bit, because I feel there is a Western view that really looks at humans as having a greedy, selfish nature. That always comes true, which is not true.
We do have a natural capacity for compassion and reciprocity. However, it’s not entirely accurate to say that’s our only natural, inherent quality. Both are true. We also have an inherent quality, that capacity for evil, and we have a capacity for greed. Otherwise, it wouldn’t exist. But it is something that the system and the mindsets that you build around it can either foster one way or the other. We can build as humans a society that promotes one or the other. And right now, we’re in a society that fosters our greedy side and not the other one. That’s also the beauty of it. We have all the options open. We are not predestined to be a certain way. All of the possibilities are there, right?
Jackie: I see it a little bit differently, for instance, meditating or yoga are about letting go of attachments to things and ideas and things you’ve been taught. And consistently, I find, either in myself or in other people that I meet, the more they practice and the more you start to let go of those things, you fall into this homeostasis that is more compassionate and kind. When you begin to separate those societal ideas from your identity, stop attaching to them. What’s left is this loving kindness, and things like greed, and evil, I guess, fall out.
Those seem more prevalent in society and represent wrong paths or harm that we need to overcome, rather than innate qualities. But people have debated this.
Maria: The way I see it is that if you cultivate things like mindfulness, you will develop this mindset. But you’re building this foundation or this practice. You’re building a path to fostering exactly that —the compassionate side —because it feels better. Because it works better. Because it is a sustainable way.
It is a sustainable way that can regenerate, whereas the other approach is not. It will always lead to extinction in one way or the other. So it can’t be perpetuated forever.
Jackie: The things of substance, like in meditation for instance, as you’re letting go of things and you’re releasing attachments, what’s underneath is compassion and empathy. It seems to be less about building those skills and rather letting go of anything that’s disguising them or holding them up.
And as you can release those attachments to those things, those other qualities are revealed,
Maria: Definitely, I think that’s what mindfulness practice does. You find that path.
Indigenous cultures incorporate a great deal of mindfulness into their traditions. But even in societies like those, you’re always gonna have Troublemakers and people who don’t abide by the rules. And it’s easier in that kind of society because that’s how you grow up. This is how you don’t have to unlearn these other things. But the capacity is there for both. Let’s say it this way, otherwise it wouldn’t exist. So, as humans, we have the capacity for both, and how it comes about that we lean one way or the other is a different question. That’s like my view on it because it’s duality that’s just there.
Jackie: Here’s a question: Do you think we are born with the capacity for evil?
Maria: I think you’re born with the capacity for both. Yes. The capacity for both is innate.
Jackie: Agree to disagree. I think it’s a learned
Maria: I think the learn skill is which one expresses itself more.
Jackie: Do you see it in nature?
Maria: Yeah, of course. I mean, have you ever heard the stories about what terrible things dolphins do? So I think the capacity is there, but that doesn’t mean that’s something we have to choose as a way of living, because it’s not a sustainable way of living.
No, for sure not. And that’s really what the whole book is about, too, is that the extractive and oppressive nature of our current society is not sustainable. It will end in disaster and in extinction. One way or the other. Yeah, for sure.
Jackie: She brings up a lot of examples of gift economies too, that, funnily enough, she had to go looking for them, which I thought was a really interesting point because she was looking into this topic, and she wasn’t exposed to so many gift economies.
Which makes me feel like we need to bring them out in the open more. But when she went looking, she saw lots of examples of them that we’ve all probably participated in, such as giving away your vegetables from your garden. Or those like libraries that are popping up everywhere. There are tons of examples.
Maria: Yeah. It’s really interesting to see how much is already working. In the roots, let’s say it this way, right? Hidden from view.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: And it’s really beautiful. And when you actually look for it there, you find so much that’s already there. She was talking about things like regenerative farming and co-ops, of course, and peer-to-peer lending and all kinds of different things.
And yeah, just amazing communities that work on this principle. For example, in more and more economies, the rise of DAOs is now being observed. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it, but it’s an organizational structure. So it’s really like a group where everyone essentially has a voting right?
It’s more of a consensus-based approach than a hierarchical one, where some people, such as shareholders, decide something. You see these springing up now. Exciting developments, and I think that a lot of it is also the recognition of the harm that an extractive system, an Exploitive system, does, ’cause it doesn’t work for everyone. And even for the people for whom it works for now, eventually it won’t work for them anymore, because it can’t. And I think that also the rise of mindfulness practices, like people are more and more aware of these kinds of teachings.
Whatever path led them to it, which we’ve talked about before. You know that some paths may be questionable at the beginning, but, in some way, shape, or form, they do lead to a rediscovery of knowledge that was already present in the past and a greater understanding of how things are interconnected with this earth.
Jackie: Yeah, it’s cool how mindfulness practice tends to lead people on this path. It seems that mindfulness is a path toward this kind of thinking. And, so that’s just really beautiful to
Maria: beautiful. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, it’s an incredible Mechanism to develop compassion. What else is compassion than a better understanding of the interconnectedness of everything? It begins with understanding another person, not just yourself, and feeling that connectedness.
Jackie: Mindfulness helps us wrap our heads around these kinds of ideas, like that the gift economy, for instance, is not linear. It’s not, I give you something, you give me something, it’s about the web, it’s about everything. It’s more of a ‘pay it forward’ thinking, where you give what you have and trust that someone else will give what they have. That’s what we have that’s extra that we can give away. and then trusting that you’ll receive the things that you need as well. And mindfulness helps us stop thinking with these blinders on and see the bigger picture.
It’s the concept of karma, as well, that’s often misunderstood as “I do something bad, Something bad happens to me.” When really, if you put bad out into the world, you’re going to make a worse place for you to live in, and that will come back to you in that sense. It’s not quid pro quo. It’s the bigger picture.
Maria: Yeah, and I liked how she talked about how the currency in a gift economy is relationships.
That’s what it is. You have better relationships, you make life better for others, and they will love you for it. And with that love and that connection comes the desire for you to thrive.
And the reciprocity that comes with that, and the flow of giving now. Yeah. And that’s another thing you said, where karma was misunderstood. I think reciprocity is also sometimes misunderstood. It’s not a tit for tat. Instead of “I’ll give you money for it” or ” I’ll give you some tomatoes, like a barter. That’s not what it is. It’s not a barter economy.
The reciprocity is really tied to this gift economy, which, as the word means, is a gift. You don’t expect anything in return, but you will receive something in return because the currency is the relationship. You just don’t know what it is gonna be, but this way you can ensure that everyone is cared for and supported and helped by the world.
Right, which is the
Jackie: Permaculture, too, that we’ve both studied. It’s not about just planting the plants you want. It’s about planting and taking care of the land, so it takes care of you. A whole Ecosystem that is self-fulfilling and abundant.
Maria: Yeah. It is a relationship just like with friends or partners and a marriage, if you think about it like that, with your plants and your land. You work on the things that need to be done, and the land does its thing, and then it supports you the same way you support it.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: Simple as that.
I always love the permaculture approach. And you know how it also ties in again with indigenous wisdoms. We now find out that, no, they weren’t just hunter gatherers and had no idea about farming, but they had a different way of farming because they were stewarding the land and they were, still, modifying things in a way that was beneficial for them and for the plants and the animals that lived there and for the land itself.
So it was a good big cycle of everything, and I can say that’s somewhat, I think, a more sophisticated technology than your monoculture agriculture for sure.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: And yeah, and it comes also back to valuing the wisdom that is in the natural cycles, right?
Seeing that different intelligence, and she brings that up. We brought that up in the last episode, and she also mentions it in the book, emphasizing that there is intelligence in everything, not just in humans.
Jackie: Where would we be without everything
Maria: Without, Yeah. We can’t live without anything else. It’s just all part of it.
Yes, I appreciated how she highlighted grassroots initiatives. She pointed out how wonderful the name is because of the roots, the natural workings. And I think that also ties in with what we talked about before about solar punk and permaculture and so on. The connection back to Earth, because Earth is what sustains us, and what we as humans have adapted to. I always love that saying, “The Earth wasn’t made for us. We were made for the Earth”. We developed in a way that suits us to live on Earth. And then she comes back at the end with this invitation of how we can foster these kind of communities or these kind of initiatives, in our personal lives.
Jackie: Really need to show up. And that’s a good piece of homework for all of us, to participate in the gift economy. So often, again, I guess I come back to what’s normalized for us, and receiving something without giving something back.
Many of us enjoy giving things away. I think it’s harder to accept something almost without anything in return. There are many ways we could participate more. We can offer things away, including our services and specialties. We can make art and give it away. Make a meal for someone or let someone else teach us a recipe of their culture, their family, or something. Or, we can go enjoy local artists, musicians who are street musicians or coffee shop musicians, or there are so many people giving things away that we just need to pause and give our attention. That’s a great way, too.
Maria: And that goes for knowledge,e too.
Jackie: right?
Maria: share things that you discovered and learned, and listen to others as well. And I think you can start where you are right now. You can start with your neighbors.
Jackie: Yeah.
Maria: I’ve actually thought about, and I’ve mentioned this before, just thought about, oh, what if I do like a coffee round in the front yard and see if neighbors wanna hang out or something, or I’ve given vegetables to the neighbors.
Yeah, just connecting a little bit more. I think some cultures and neighborhoods have that already nailed this down a little bit better than this very suburban neighborhood I’m in right now. So it’s gonna be a little bit more of an initial barrier to cross, but I don’t think that’s an issue. Or things like tool sharing, or offering the snowblower to someone, or whatever, and say, ‘Hey, if you need the snowblower, come and let us know.’ You can have it. Which is really funny because, in some ways, the boomers actually had that down better, as they would go to their neighbors, talk to them, and borrow sugar, without expecting it back.
It’s total reciprocity because they’re not gonna be like next day, “Hey, you got my sugar?”.
Jackie: I always thought it was crazy. I live in the suburbs right now, too, and there’s this whole list of stuff that you need, like a Snowblower—all these tools, like a wheelbarrow and a lawnmower.
And we only need one for the whole street, actually, if we just communicated and had relationships.
Maria: You could have a communal tool chat, like a tool library. Or you could say you have a spreadsheet and a chat group, and be like, ‘Hey, we’ll have a spreadsheet with who has what, and then we can check it out on the spreadsheet or something.’
There are so many things you can do. Yeah. It just takes practice. Getting out of your shell, out of that conditioning. I think that’s really the biggest, the hardest part about it.
Jackie: And I think most people that you would approach with an idea like this generosity, are gonna be really receptive.
Maria: Yes, exactly. That’s the thing about it. It is like people won’t be like, What do you want? Are you crazy? No. They’re gonna be like, oh, that sounds like a good idea. Why don’t we do that? very likely 90% of the time.
Maybe that’s the homework. Let’s think of some, and we don’t have to go crazy; simple ways could be the next step.
Jackie: Try to give something in the gift economy and try to receive something.
Maria: Yeah. What could you receive?
Jackie: Yeah. Ask someone
Maria: One easy way might be one of those buy-nothing groups. That’s like a very low hurdle, an easy way to get into that.
Jackie: Yeah. You can even opt for no-contact pickup if you just want to take a little baby step.
So yeah, that’s the homework. Find a little thing where you can participate in a gift economy kind of flow. If you haven’t read it, pick up Serviceberry by Robin Wall Kimmerer. It’s a quick read.
Maria: It’s really beautiful.
Jackie: I think I’ll keep this handy to grab anytime I need to, like when I need to reground or something.
Maria: I can also recommend the audiobook because she reads it herself, she has a very wonderful voice, and the way she reads it, obviously, with passion, because she wrote it. So it’s just absolutely wonderful listening to her.
Jackie: So yeah. Thank you all for listening. Give us a follow on socials or start a conversation. We are at @BecomingMindfulPodcast, or visit our website becomingmindfulpodcast.com.
And until next time, be well.
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